Showing posts with label revival. Show all posts
Showing posts with label revival. Show all posts

Friday, March 24, 2023

Why I Don't Want to be at a "Revival"

A group of people kneeling in prayer at the altar, at the Asbury revival. Image source.

My posts on the Asbury revival:

February 13 Blogaround
"There is no one to help me into the pool when the water is stirred": What people do with "revival"
Does God Use Miracles To Take Sides? 
The Logistics of a Revival 
Why I Don't Want to be at a "Revival"

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So I've written a bunch of posts about the Asbury revival, which happened in February. My overall perspective on it is, I think to some extent it really is from God, but also I'm HIGHLY SUSPICIOUS of anyone in evangelical Christian culture who says it's inherently a good thing, and we want it to happen everywhere. And anyone who tries to tell us their opinion on "this is what it means." 

Anyway, this post is about why I don't want to be at a "revival."

So, I've seen photos from the Asbury revival. A crowd of people raising their hands, singing- man, the energy in that room must have been incredible. A bunch of students kneeling at the front, right there at the stage. Wow, yeah, I used to do things like that, and part of me misses it.

But then I pull myself back and say, no, I can't be doing things like that. This is not a safe environment for me to express my feelings about God. If these people knew what I really believed, they would say I'm not a real Christian. I can't be so open and honest about how I feel about God, I can't let them see that, they are not safe.

When I was evangelical... I was so devoted to God, so overtaken with obsession for him, so passionate, and I showed it during the worship music time at church services or Christian events. Dancing, shouting, raising my hands, kneeling. I showed everyone how I felt about God. I always heard Christians say "when you worship, it's just you and God, you shouldn't care what other people think" and I really bought into that.

And the whole time, I also bought into a Christian ideology where we judged other Christians and labelled them as "not real Christians." If they didn't believe in hell. If they interpreted a key bible verse differently than we did. If they accepted LGBTQ people. If they didn't "put God first."

I've heard other ex-evangelicals say, it's the ones who are the most devoted to following Jesus, who take it the most seriously, who end up following Him right out of the church and rebelling against the entire ideology. 

I was fiercely passionate about God when I was evangelical, and I would say I still am now. And at every step along the way. 

I didn't turn away from God; instead, I discovered that my God had been a monster all along, and I couldn't in good conscience obey him any more... But there was a better God there, once I'd hacked through the cardboard cut-out of a God I used to worship. A better God. A queer God, for lack of a better term. I use the term "queer" here because it encapsulates something very important about the difference between my Christianity now and my Christianity back then. One was about beating yourself down to stay within the rigid rules that God put you in. The other is about the amazing beauty of human creativity and the diversity of human experience, the joy that we find in discovering ourselves and our world, where God is alive everywhere, in every person- in Them we live and move and have our being. I suspect the best way to find out which side of this divide a particular person or church is on is to ask them their position on LGBTQ inclusion.

(Okay maybe I'm being a little naive there, thinking that churches that accept gay couples are perfect utopias... It's possible to accept gay couples and still have a lot of harmful anti-self and/or patriarchal ideology.)

Anyway, my point is, I worshiped in front of all these evangelical people, and then, as I followed what they said Jesus told us to do, I changed my beliefs into the sorts of beliefs that people who get branded "fake Christians" have.

Maybe it was when I stopped believing in hell. Maybe that's the first time I crossed the line into "evangelicals would say I'm not a real Christian."

It's only directly happened to me a few times- Christians saying I'm not a real Christian, I'm rejecting God because I just want to sin, etc. I'm not really bothered by those specific times. The thing that actually hurts is how I spent so many years in a Christian culture where it was totally normal to say "so-and-so is not a real Christian because they believe the wrong thing about XYZ"- that was normal, that was what we did. I don't remember anyone ever challenging it. We knew all the right answers about what God wanted and the correct way to read the bible, and, well, we're not arrogant, we're just telling the truth! 

That's the culture I was in, when I let everyone see how much I love God, and then I became the kind of Christian who's a "fake Christian" and I feel so bad that I let them see how much I love God. People are too polite to say it to me directly, but I know. I know. I used to be evangelical, so I know.

I know I'm a "false teacher" now. 

So I see the photos of the Asbury revival, and part of me wants to experience that, but part of me says, no, these people are not safe, I can't show them how I really feel about God. The pull of the light side and the pull of the dark side, so to say. The question of "which side is which?" is left as an exercise for the reader.

But, wait, I have one caveat: I would worship with queer Christians.

If it's a group of queer Christians... we've all been through some shit, we know what's what, and we still choose to follow Jesus. That is a totally different situation than a worship service at your average church. I could worship with queer Christians, because I know they don't judge me like that. Even if some of them judged me, some others would surely step up and say, no, we are not the arbiters of who is and who is not a "real Christian."

Yes, I could worship with queer Christians.

But with a group of conservative/evangelical Christians... no, I shouldn't do that. I'm not safe there. If they knew what I believed, they would say I'm not a real Christian. People like that don't get to see how I feel about God.

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Related:

"You Weren't There, the Night Jesus Found Me"

The Christianity of GCN Conference 

My Identity was in Christ

The things I've never let myself say about worship 

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Also a few videos I need to share here:

This Chinese song is how I feel about God:

Also, God is a girl.


Thursday, March 16, 2023

Blogaround

1. My Latest Book! On “The Many Lives of Psalm 91” (December 8) I am a huge bible nerd, so I am really interested in this book.

2. And it leaves me reeling (March 14) Another very good post from the Slacktivist about revival. Referring to the revival that almost maybe started in 2015, he says, "But whatever revival might have begun there was quickly squelched as InterVarsity began furiously backpedaling, insisting that none of the repentance and renewal pledged by thousands of young people at that event would be allowed to become meaningful or lasting."

3. Why the Effort to Make the Texas Abortion Bans More Humane Is Doomed (March 14) "From the time of previous eras’ abortion bans, exceptions were tailored more to prevent free access to the procedure than to address real problems in pregnancy, and state abortion laws today are no exception."

4. Oscars 2023: Everything Everywhere All At Once cleans up with seven awards (March 13) Yes!

5. Handsome Dancer - Coincidance (2015) Okay I'm sure I must have posted this video before, but this is so ridiculous and funny and everyone needs to watch it.

Friday, March 3, 2023

The Logistics of a Revival

A whiteboard at the Asbury revival showing the times when the chapel is open on February 16. Image source.

My posts on the Asbury revival:

February 13 Blogaround
"There is no one to help me into the pool when the water is stirred": What people do with "revival"
Does God Use Miracles To Take Sides? 
The Logistics of a Revival
Why I Don't Want to be at a "Revival"

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Really great post from Christianity Today: ‘No Celebrities Except Jesus’: How Asbury Protected the Revival (February 23). It's about the very practical decisions that leaders at Asbury University made to keep the "revival" focused on the things they believed it should be focused on. (The article is paywalled, but go ahead and click it because I think they give a few free views per month... Honestly for me it *is* worth paying the $49 yearly subscription fee for Christianity Today, just to read this article. I think that says something about what specific type of nerd I am...)

I love this post SO MUCH, because I think people have this idea that things like revival "just happen" and there's no conscious human decision-making. As if God just does this thing and then everyone is emotionally caught up in it and responds automatically. No, that's not how it works at all. The reality is there's A LOT of behind-the-scenes stuff going on to keep things running smoothly. The initial trigger may have been caused by God, but the things that happened afterward, to direct the event and shape it to be a certain way, was very much a product of human decision-making. (And yes, I'm sure that people prayed about these decisions a lot, and believed that it was God telling them to do those things- still, this is humans taking action, not something that God causes to happen automatically.)

Here, let's take a look:

The school had not planned an outpouring of the Spirit. But when something started to happen in the middle of the first week of February—the middle of the semester, a few days before the Super Bowl—an impromptu mix of administrators, staff, faculty, friends, and university neighbors quickly mobilized. They gathered in a storage closet off the side of Hughes Auditorium and then repurposed a classroom to facilitate and support whatever it was that God was doing.

As word spread, the crowds came, and debates raged online about whether this was a “real” revival, these men and women worked untold hours to make sure that everyone who sought God had food and water and restrooms and everyone was safe. Part of the story behind the story of the revival is the almost invisible work that went into protecting it.

“There were 100 people volunteering at any one time, just to make these services work on the fly,” Asbury University president Kevin Brown told CT. “There was a classroom that got redeployed into almost a command center. If you walked in, there were flow charts on the wall and the whiteboards were covered with information. There was a volunteer check-in station. … It was one of the most impressive technical feats I’ve ever seen.”

Yes! Love this! This is great. A team of volunteers came together to decide how to manage the "revival." And that NEEDED to happen, otherwise it would have become a disorganized mess. But the team of volunteers is doing that work, it's not "God." Like I said in another post on the revival, there's what God does, and then there's how people respond to it.

It wasn't just "God did this"- it was "God did a thing, and then we organized around it to make it into something." (I say this because personally I think there *is* something to this that's really from God- but I definitely understand if you don't believe that, and I am SO not on board with the evangelicals who are like "hooray let's pray that this happens in other universities too!" as if it's self-evidently a good thing.) It could have gone a completely different direction if the humans there had made different decisions.

Then they started thinking slightly longer term: “Will students stay all night? What does that look like? Should we leave the sound system on? Should we let students keep bringing guitars into chapel?”

The group decided to have ministers stay in Hughes and have security watch the building but keep it open. They would let the students stay and pray and sing as long as they wanted.

Other decisions they made in the next few days seem, as the ad hoc committee reflects on them now, almost like they happened by instinct. There was no time for drawn-out discussions. They would meet in the storage closet and make decisions minute by minute. Did they want to put up screens for the lyrics of the worship songs? No. Should ministers who spoke on stage stop to introduce themselves? No. Should they put up signs asking people not to livestream? Yes.

YES! I love this SO MUCH! So practical! These are very real decisions that needed to be made, and it all happened behind the scenes- and people might get the mistaken impression that these things just happened automatically because "God did it" or whatever. 

By evening the crowd had grown to about 3,000, and the university had to set up overflow rooms. At the same time, an uncoordinated infrastructure of support began to appear. An Asbury student set up a table and started handing out tea and coffee. She said Jesus told her to. A woman in Indianapolis baked chocolate chip cookies for a full day and then drove down to give them away. A professor went and got cases of bottled water.

Pizza appeared, unbidden, along with homemade potato soup, cake, a table of protein bars, and what one volunteer called “all the Chick-fil-A.” Someone volunteered to start organizing housing and put up signs with QR codes that people could scan to start the process of finding a place to sleep.

Yessssssssssssssss. Thousands of people descend on this little Kentucky town, creating PROBLEMS like where are they gonna sleep? And people needed to step in and do that organizing work. It's not an emotionally moving spiritual experience, but it's important and necessary.

As news of the singing, praying students ripped across social media and “takes” ricocheted around Twitter, TikTok, and Facebook, the team planned and organized, working out the details of how to deal with that tension. So when someone started blowing on a shofar—the curly ram’s horn trumpet that some charismatic Christians have turned into a symbol of MAGA politics and spiritual warfare—the chapel staff didn’t have a protocol for that exact situation, but they knew what to do. They asked the person to recognize the way God had showed up in the chapel and be faithful to the sweet, humble, peaceful spirit of the outpouring.

They did the same thing, Asbury staff told CT, when someone started praying loudly and aggressively. And again when someone started attempting an exorcism—not arguing about demonology or citing university rules, but invoking the authority of the outpouring itself.

“We want to be true to how the Holy Spirit showed up with our students,” said Baldwin, the vice president of student life. “We experienced joy. We experienced love. We experienced peace. There was lots of singing and testimonies. Those became our signposts. This is how, in front of our eyes, we are seeing the Holy Spirit come upon our students, and we want to honor that.”

Most people complied, though a few had to be asked to leave. One street preacher came wearing a T-shirt condemning gay sex and a plan, according to staff, to shout at students about perversion. He was escorted off the property. Another person wouldn’t stop praying aggressively and was told he had to go outside.

I LOVE THIS SO MUCH.

So, because this became a huge thing that attracted thousands of people, inevitably they got people who wanted to come and make big political/controversial/wacky overtures. And this volunteer team at Asbury did not allow that. Good for them! I love how practical this is- they don't just naively assume that since this is "from God" then nothing bad will happen.

It's interesting that the reason they give isn't "that's offensive" or "we don't agree with those beliefs"- instead, they said it was because they wanted to stay true to what the revival had been about from the beginning- about people having the experience of feeling God's presence. About singing and testimonies. By using this as the reason, they don't get into debates about which beliefs are right and which are wrong. Very interesting.

But you can see here that these sorts of practical decisions can potentially cause the "revival" to veer away from what God intended it to be. What if that weirdo trying to perform an exorcism was called by God to do that, and the Asbury volunteers were wrong to put a stop to it? Isn't this the kind of spiritual experience where you should be open to whatever God is doing, even if it's something really weird like having somebody loudly perform an exorcism?

So, my point is, this is a decision. If the would-be exorcist was sent by God, and you stop them, then you cause everyone to miss out on whatever amazing spiritual things God was planning to do involving the exorcism. But if you err in the other direction- if they're not from God, but you let them go ahead and do whatever they want, then they are doing something weird/offensive that messes up other people's spiritual experiences. And maybe more weirdos will show up and do other things like that, and turn the whole event into some kind of circus.

They had to make a decision- and it's a human decision, it's not something that happens automatically because "God." (Though yes, I'm sure the Asbury people were praying a lot to ask God what decisions they should make about all these practical things. Probably exorcist-person was also praying though!) Because of my own personal beliefs regarding exorcism, I think this exorcist-person was, uh, wrong, and the Asbury team made the right decision. But you see, my ideas of what's reasonable and what's not are very much rooted in my own beliefs about exorcism. It's not God making that decision- it's humans, with all their existing biases.

It makes me wonder what decisions they would have made on other "controversial" "issues", like existing as a queer person. But, again, these kinds of practical decisions are unavoidable

When the chapel staff opened up the microphone again for testimonies, they started vetting them first. As an added precaution, the Asbury team held on to the microphones while people talked.

YES! Vet the testimonies! I LOVE IT! OH MY GOODNESS I LOVE THIS ARTICLE SO MUCH!

I grew up evangelical, so I have been to many testimony services, where any random person from the audience can come up to the microphone and tell their story of how God has been working in their life recently or whatever. Before the testimony time starts, I've often heard the speaker remind everyone of "The ABC's of testimonies: audible, brief, Christ-centered. And D: don't preach." 

I have even been at some testimony services where some adult role model came up and offered a bit of vague pushback on some of the ideas from the students' testimonies. For example, in one testimony service I attended, a few students mentioned God telling them something in a dream. Later, one of the adults went up to the microphone and said, you know, just because something's in a dream doesn't mean it's from God- it could be caused by indigestion. It was very nice, gentle, didn't name names, but just wanted to correct an idea that was mentioned, so people in the audience didn't think that teaching was endorsed by the church in general.

And at Asbury, where thousands of people were coming from all over the country, man, you have no idea who is gonna come up to the microphone during testimony time and what they're gonna say. Vet the testimonies beforehand. Yes. I love it.

(Again, though, this is a point where this very practical, very necessary human decision-making may end up doing something contrary to God's opinion. I wonder what would happen if somebody's testimony was "God is telling me it's okay to be gay. God loves me just the way I am." Or "God is telling me that I need to trust him, and he'll give me the strength to overcome my same-sex attraction." I assume that since Asbury is a Christian university, their policies are not queer-accepting.)

There were also announcements that if people were moved by the Spirit to jump up and down, they shouldn’t do that in the nearly 100-year-old balcony.

YESSSS I love this SO MUCH. Like, there's this idea that in worship, you're supposed to be just totally carried away by your feelings towards God, and you just can't help it if you respond by raising your hands/ dancing/ jumping/ shouting. That's not true at all. You can control yourself. Asbury announced that jumping is okay but not if you're in the balcony.

Seminary students also got involved, sometimes formally, sometimes informally. Hermann Finch, a Methodist youth minister from Zimbabwe who is studying at the seminary, told CT he was asked directions to the toilet. So that’s how he decided to volunteer, pointing people to the port-a-potties for an evening.

This is so real. I was going to just say "he's doing the Lord's work" but people would think I was making a joke, and I'm not- that really is the Lord's work, helping people find the bathroom.

Going into the second weekend, however, the revival committee decided they would need to announce a limit to their hospitality. The town of Wilmore was overwhelmed, traffic was impossible, and news of the revival was only spreading more rapidly. Tucker Carlson, host of the most-watched TV news show, did a glowing segment on Asbury and told viewers the next day he was “still thinking about it.” Carlson said he “didn’t understand it … but whatever is going on seemed wonderful.” On Friday, former vice president Mike Pence tweeted he was “deeply moved to see the revival taking place at @AsburyUniv!” and noted his own religious awaking at a music festival there in 1978.

Early Saturday morning the school set up two large screens in the grassy semicircle outside the chapel to try to accommodate everyone. An estimated 7,000 people showed up that day—more than doubling the number of people in Wilmore. Most had to stay outside the chapel, even though the temperature reached only the 40s. Some reports placed the total number of weekend visitors around 20,000.

At some point, the team decided they had to bring the revival to an end, because the town was overwhelmed with people, and the volunteers were overwhelmed by working there all day long. Okay, this is great, I love this. Very real human concerns, like exhaustion, traffic, not wanting to be a burden on all the residents of this tiny town.

And, also- this is my view, not what the article says- God is everywhere. We don't need to keep this specific instance of "revival" going, because it's just feelings. What actually matters is what you do with it- and we already know what God wants us to do. Do justice, love mercy, walk humbly before God.

Another thing not mentioned in the article was that the Asbury team decided to prioritize people under 25 years old ("Gen Z"). For people under 25, there was a separate line which moved much faster, to get into the chapel. (Source- I've heard/read this in a lot of places, here is one example.) This is a very human decision, and I find it very interesting because it is blatant discrimination. Now, I don't think this "blatant discrimination" is necessarily a bad thing- this is a college, of course their priority should be their own students rather than whatever random people drive in from who-knows-where. (They decided to expand it beyond their own students, to everyone in that age group.) I don't think there's anything wrong with that. My point is, this is quite obviously a decision made by humans, not something that God did. (And setting up 2 separate lines and directing people toward which line they should be in- also very much done by humans.)

They believed that the meaning of this revival is closely tied to college students/ Gen Z experiencing God, so that's why they prioritized people in that age group. That was their belief about God's purpose in the revival. I'm not saying it's right or wrong- I mean, I'm fine with it, they're a college, it makes sense that they focus on that age group- but I'm saying this is a human belief about what God is doing and what the revival is supposed to be. Humans decided that, not God. And, again, it's fine, I'm not saying it's wrong- I'm just pointing out that this revival wasn't something that "just happened" because "God did it"- it was very much shaped by fallible human decisions.

Okay, now here's a question: What if someone made the argument, "Yes, it was human decisions shaping the revival- but, since it was started by God, we can be confident that those human decisions were the right ones. Because, God knows the future, and God wouldn't have even started it if God knew that people wouldn't handle it right"?

No, I don't buy that.

I'm just really uncomfortable with the idea that, if you're fated to screw it up, then God's not even going to give you a chance. God sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. I think people should have a shot at experiencing revival, even if they're people who aren't going to respond in the most perfect ways.

And, therefore, when God starts something, we absolutely can judge and critique how people respond to it. There's no "well God chose them to experience this, therefore whatever they do is automatically right." (Let's also judge and critique God!)

In summary: Wow, I love that Christianity Today article so much, because it's about the practical, behind-the-scenes work that shaped the Asbury revival. I love it because it's something that most Christians don't seem to be aware of at all. Like there's this myth that God just does these things, and then the rest just plays out automatically- but that's so not true. It was people making these decisions. And things could have been very different if they had made different decisions.

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More posts about the revival:

The New York Times (paywalled): ‘Woodstock’ for Christians: Revival Draws Thousands to Kentucky Town (February 23)

Relevant: Why Asbury University Decided to End Revival Services This Week (February 21)

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Related:

Prayer Rates Don't Correlate With Actual Risk 

The things I've never let myself say about worship

Wednesday, March 1, 2023

Blogaround

1. Meet China’s High Heels King (February 24) Wow, I am really impressed about how this man actually understands how unworkable a lot of high-heeled shoes are, learning it through actual experience. And impressed at how well he's able to run and jump in heels.

2. Can pastors please stop salivating over women’s bodies in sermons? A response to Jonathan Pokluda’s objectification of the ‘perfect’ woman (February 24) "Women deserve better than to go to church and hear all that stops our pastors from having sex with total strangers is a Bible memory passage. We’re all for Bible memory, but we’re also for marriage vows, faithfulness and holding Christian men to at least the same moral standard as your average non-Christian husband at your local Applebee’s." PREACH!

3. Wall-E – Paradise Regained? Reflections on the Garden of Eden and Man’s Labor (January 23) "The movie causes us to ask, what do we think our future will be like? Wall-E, the movie, depicts a world that Man has destroyed through lack of stewardship, and in which they are relegated to living away from their home with technology serving their every need. At first sight, it may seem as though they live in a kind of paradise. Though they have been taken from the earth, they now live a life of pleasure. Is this heaven? Is this what some people, including many Christians conceptualize heaven to be like? No work, being served, just relaxing all the time?"

4. The Origins of the Parable of the Sower (and Other Seedy Riddles) (February 22) "This is not the parable you would tell if you were calling people to action, because it presents a deterministic view of humanity. ... However, at the meta-narrative level, this parable makes perfect sense if it is aimed at Mark’s community—especially those discouraged by a lack of success in their preaching and missionary work."

And another one from the same blog: Did Jezebel Murder Naboth? A Reassessment of Israel’s Most Notorious Queen (January 15) "This is not meant literally; we are not supposed to understand that anyone will actually be eaten by dogs and birds. Rather, such wording constitutes a curse of non-burial; telling someone that their corpse will be consumed by animals implies a shameful death and legacy. Such curses were 'a standard part of treaty and covenent formulas throughout the ancient Near East' (Cronauer, p. 26), and there are many examples outside the Bible."

5. 'Then' (February 28) "Whenever some people start talking about revival, other people will start quoting Isaiah 58." As they should. (This is another post from the Slacktivist about the Asbury revival. All of his posts on it have been extremely good.)

Thursday, February 23, 2023

Blogaround

1. Why anti-vaxxers get in more car crashes (February 16) This is fascinating- a study of 11 million people in Canada found that people who were unvaccinated (for covid) were 72% more likely to get in car crashes than people who were vaccinated. I would definitely like to know more about the reasons why. We can speculate but I don't think we really have good evidence on what the reasons are.

2. 2,400-year-old flush toilet discovered in China could be one of the oldest ever (February 21)

3. Free lumberjack cake tutorial from Sugar Geek Show (2018, via)

4. A Christian school canceled a concert after learning one of the singers is gay (February 14) "And notice how PCC doesn’t explain what 'endorsement' they would have been offering by allowing a gay man to sing traditional and popular songs on campus. How much of a bubble do students live in that even choral music must be heard through a prism of sexuality?"

5. This whole thread:

6. Southern Baptists Expel Rick Warren’s Saddleback Church for Ordaining a Female Pastor (February 22) Wow, isn't the SBC worried about going to hell? Yikes.

7. Freely, freely you have received (February 21) "And but so, that’s what I think 'revival' refers to, a moment in which we encounter the possibility that we are both fully known and fully loved by God. ... But the key thing, I think, is that this moment is not itself the story, only the introduction to the story. The story involves what happens next."

8. Ken Ham Finds Threats to Young-Earth Creationist within Young-Earth Creationism (February 2) Yep, that's kind of Ken Ham's whole thing- someone disagrees with Ken Ham on some little detail, and therefore that person is a false teacher and they are bad bad bad.

Monday, February 20, 2023

Does God Use Miracles To Take Sides?

Crowd of people worshiping in the chapel at the Asbury revival. Image source.

My posts on the Asbury revival:

February 13 Blogaround
"There is no one to help me into the pool when the water is stirred": What people do with "revival"
Does God Use Miracles To Take Sides? 
The Logistics of a Revival 
Why I Don't Want to be at a "Revival"

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Some news articles about the Asbury revival:

Asbury revival in Kentucky will end after two weeks of non-stop services, worship (February 19)

A Christian college in Kentucky is dispersing crowds of thousands after going viral on TikTok with a spontaneous 13-day worship event (February 21)

Here's why the Asbury revival is ending this week (February 20)

Asbury University has posted links to the livestream and the livestream archive. Not gonna lie, I was moved watching this. Part of me wants to worship, but, well, that's complicated because I'm ex-evangelical.

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I'm thinking about this "revival" at Asbury, and thinking about how everyone on the internet suddenly has a hot take about it. Like, first, this thing happens, and some people are there experiencing it, and then a bunch of people on the internet, who did not experience it, all have to give their opinions on it.

(I realize that I am doing the exact same thing, though... I was not there, yet here I am writing several blog posts about it...)

I'm thinking about how there's 2 separate things: "God does a thing" and then "people argue about it on the internet." And how I've heard some people (on the internet) say, about the Asbury revival, "Let's just let it be what it is. Let's not use it to prop up our own personal political opinions." Or, people who have been there, saying that people are experiencing feelings of peace and wholeness, and other abstract, vague, positive feelings, and that it's not taking a position on any culture-war issues.

But... does that even make sense? God's Spirit comes here, and is felt powerfully by a lot of people, but doesn't take any position on any hot-button topic? Even though Christians on both sides of the "hot-button topics" feel that being wrong on those topics is a huge problem which is literally hurting people. God isn't going to say anything one way or the other, in order to avoid people arguing on the internet about it afterwards?

The issue on my mind is acceptance of queer Christians. I'm a queer Christian, but I'm asexual and that's not something Christians are having a culture war about, and I'm straight and married to a man so on the surface it looks like I'm following the rules. (I am very much NOT following the rules, though- I explore my desires and what I want or don't want, instead of just repressing myself and then having sex that's all about my husband, like I was a told a good godly wife is supposed to do.) Queer Christians who are L, G, B, or T have a much harder time in churches than I do.

But to me, being queer-affirming (which in practice means total acceptance of same-sex relationships and transgender identities) is the key question I would ask if I was going to start attending a church. Even though I'm not personally affected by gay or trans issues, it's an indicator of whether the church believes people have the right to make their own decisions about their own personal lives, or if the church believes that Christians are in charge of making decisions for everybody else. Do they believe "you have to repress yourself and fit into this box that God said everyone needs to fit in" or do they believe "the diversity of the queer community is beautiful and reflects the image of God, and it is so life-giving to discover your identity, that God loves you and your queerness, and that you don't have to force yourself into the boxes that other people made"? See, those are very different churches.

Anyway, in the context of this revival, the students on stage and/or the Holy Spirit can't just "not take a position" on queer acceptance. Of all the people on stage leading the worship music, are any of them openly queer, or not? Either way, that's taking a side. For queer Christians, their very existence in the church is political. There can't be a "this revival is just about experiencing a sense of wholeness from God, and doesn't touch on any political controversies." (See this tweet- people arguing on Twitter about how the presence of queer people on stage at Asbury does or does not mean the revival is "really" from God.)

(Or, here's another issue that God and/or the students at Asbury may or may not take a position on: wearing masks. I haven't seen anyone in those crowds or on stage wearing a mask. Does this mean *God* believes we don't have to care about covid any more?)

This is one of the big reasons why I don't want God to intervene and do things to take sides on this or that issue. Because it won't do any good. For people who directly experience it- yes, because of the emotions of it, perhaps it is powerful and convincing and can change their opinion on some issue. Like to suddenly feel like "wow I see this in a different way now, and suddenly it all makes sense" and just feel so strongly that that's true- I've had spiritual experiences along those lines before. But for anyone who wasn't there directly experiencing it, what good does it do? If someone tells you "I had a spiritual experience which confirms that God agrees with XYZ opinion" then if you also agree with XYZ opinion, you'll be like, "wow great." But if you disagree with XYZ opinion, you'll think, "well this person obviously misunderstood what God was trying to tell them"- it's not convincing to you at all, because you disagree with XYZ for your own reasons, none of which are addressed by this person's spiritual experience.

So some people were there and experienced it, and the rest of us are here on the internet writing hot takes about what it means... so what good is it that God powerfully spoke to people there, if that's not actually useful for convincing anyone who wasn't there?

Or, maybe I shouldn't say "what good is it?" I don't want to deny that it's a good experience for people who are there. I guess what I'm responding to is that idea that it's more than that. Lotta Christians on the internet writing hot takes about how this *means* something so much *bigger*, and I just don't think it does.

Perhaps some queer person there felt like God was saying that God accepts their queerness, and some other queer person felt like God was saying they need to continue to repress themself. In the past, I've heard testimonies of both of these kinds of spiritual experiences. (See also: my post on the Nashville Statement.) My opinion on them is simply my opinion on whether repression is deadly or life-giving. Just because someone says they had an epiphany from God doesn't affect my opinion on that.

So, I mean, blah. I see all these evangelical Christians on the internet talking about "we want this to spread to more university campuses" and I'm just like, blah. It's just going to result in more people arguing on the internet.

And... the thing is... maybe we could have this idea of how the "ideal" miracle is one where God doesn't take a side on any big controversial issue that Christians argue about it- but in the bible, God does that ALL THE TIME. God uses miracles to take a side ALL THE TIME. To say "these people are right and those people are wrong."

Okay let me give you some examples. Maybe the biggest example is when Elijah and the prophets of Baal both set up altars in a contest to see which god would light an altar on fire. (1 Kings 18) In a big, dramatic miracle, Elijah's God sent fire that "burned up the sacrifice, the wood, the stones and the soil, and also licked up the water in the trench." Then the crowd responded by killing all the prophets of Baal- was that what God wanted? 

There's Moses telling Pharaoh "let my people go" and performing miracles to outdo the miracles that Pharaoh's priests do. (Exodus 7-14) Notice that Moses never made any argument along the lines of "slavery is wrong"- instead, it was all about "my god can beat up your god." To prove a point, God does more and more violent miracles, culminating in killing all the firstborn sons of Egypt and then drowning Pharaoh's army in the Red Sea.

There's Numbers 16, where Korah challenged Moses's authority, and God caused the earth to open up and swallow Korah and his entire household.

There's Joshua 6, where God commands the Israelites to walk around the city of Jericho for 7 days, and when the Israelites obey these instructions, God causes the walls of Jericho to collapse, and then the Israelites go in and kill all the inhabitants of Jericho (except Rahab's household).

A lot of stories where God steps in and basically says "these people are right, and those people are wrong." Though I gotta say, I suspect that a lot of these things didn't really happen, and we should be asking questions about the motivations of writers who wrote "oh yeah XYZ is totally true and God thinks so too."

Moving on to the New Testament!

Jesus tells a paralyzed man "your sins are forgiven" and the teachers of the law get mad about that, because only God can forgive sins. Then, to prove a point, Jesus miraculously heals the paralyzed man. (Matthew 9)

Jesus healed people on the Sabbath, which also was taking sides and making the Pharisees mad. (Mark 3, Luke 13)

And when the devil tempted Jesus, he wanted Jesus to jump off the temple so God would do a miracle and rescue him- and Jesus refused because "do not put the Lord your God to the test." (Matthew 4) So, maybe not cool to do a miracle just to win an argument.

Ananias and Sapphira lied to the apostle Peter, and immediately fell down and died. (Acts 5)

And when the early Christians were arguing about whether Gentiles could be Christians or if only Jewish people could, God poured out the Holy Spirit on the Gentile converts and they spoke in tongues. (Acts 10) In Acts 15, Paul and Barnabus used this in their argument for Gentile inclusion. If God accepted the Gentiles by doing miracles among them, they argued, how could the Jewish Christians exclude Gentiles by requiring them to get circumcised and obey the Jewish laws?

So if we want to say, "There are Christians with strong opinions on both sides of Big Controversial Issue X, and both sides think that the other side is horribly wrong and harmful, but we don't want to get into that, we just want *unity* and *love*"... well, lol, that's not what we see in the bible at all. And really, aren't those the big issues that we would want God to give us some answers on? (Or... maybe these are the issues that we won't change our mind on, even if God comes right up and says we're wrong...)

(But again, yeah, let's be a little suspicious of writers who wrote about "we believe in XYZ because this one time God did a miracle" and you have no way to verify if the miracle actually happened...)

But, like I said, in reality isn't this useless? For people who experienced the "miracle" or "revival" or whatever, it's convincing, but for anyone who wasn't there, well, it doesn't mean anything. I'm sure we could come up with all kinds of reasons that the writers of the bible took things the wrong way and actually they were totally wrong about whatever they said the "miracle" meant. Like, oh, how tragic that Joshua led the Israelites to kill all the people of Jericho and claim that they were doing God's will.

So... then what? If God comes and actually takes a side, it just leads to people arguing on the internet, because they can't actually believe that God would disagree with them- and a secondhand miracle isn't good evidence at all because you can't really be sure what exactly happened, and it doesn't address any of the actual reasons that you hold your opinions. But if God performs miracles which never take sides, isn't that kind of ... weak? Aren't those the issues we need God's input on? And in today's church culture, the only way to "not take a side" is to never acknowledge the existence of queer Christians, never say anything good or bad about being queer- which kind of is taking a side, if you ask me.

Okay I know I'm oversimplifying this- there are definitely miracles that are not "controversial." (I mean, there could be, hypothetically, though I personally am skeptical of any miracle claims.) Like, maybe God heals a sick person. 

But... uh... actually that could still be "controversial", because what if it's someone that Christians think doesn't "deserve" to be healed? Remember when conservative Christians didn't want to help people who had AIDS? Or, more recently, when conservative Christians didn't want their daughters to get the HPV vaccine?

Okay but anyway, there must be some miracles God can do that won't be taken to mean that God is Making A Point, and then everyone has to give their opinion on said point. And maybe the fact that these spiritual experiences are very powerful and meaningful to the people actually there experiencing them, is more important than the fact that other people will argue about it on the internet. So I am oversimplifying.

But anyway... I'm just not on board with the Christians who think this "revival" is automatically a good thing. Or the Christians who want it to just be a general positive thing that doesn't take sides on any political issue- because in the bible, miracles are often used to prove a point. And I'm also not on board with the Christians who want to use it to prove a point- because how can that possibly be convincing to anyone?

Like I said in my previous post, there's what God does, and there's how people respond. We have some people who actually were there and experienced the Asbury revival, and the rest of us who weren't there, who are writing our opinions about it on the internet. (I include myself in this group.) What good is that? For people who were there, it's great and meaningful, but for people who weren't there, it's just another thing to argue about. Is that how miracles are supposed to work?

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Related:

I Would Love to Know If God Intervened to Stop Covid From Spreading in Churches

Saturday, February 18, 2023

Blogaround

1. This important thread:

2. This whole thread:

3. This School Has the Worst Fire Safety Policy You've Ever Seen (2013) Okay I know this is from 2013, but I just saw it shared on Twitter and I am gobsmacked. (Also he links to a related post that he wrote but his link is broken, here is the correct link for that one.) Hemant Mehta literally emailed Pensacola Christian College to ask for clarification, and they replied twice, but somehow they aren't able to say the words "getting out of a burning building is MORE IMPORTANT then dressing modestly."

(I've heard a lot of horror stories about PCC from Samantha Field's blog...)

4. The recent kerfluffle on twitter is that some pastor told a story about how he was minding his own business at a restaurant and then the SEXIEST WOMAN EVER came and hit on him- the consensus on twitter is that this never happened, and now we are analyzing the cultural environment that these stories come from/ the reasons that a male pastor would make up a story like this (and this is a whole genre- it's not like this is the only example).

This thread is good:

5. The Princess Bride (1987) -- Ace Mini-Review (February 17) "Unlike many rom coms, which treat True Love as a universal goal everyone should be searching for, The Princess Bride presents it as practically unattainable.  And, as an ace-spectrum person, I actually find that comforting."

6. Extremely Hardcore (January 17) About Twitter employees' experiences after Musk took over. Yikes.

7. Microsoft “lobotomized” AI-powered Bing Chat, and its fans aren’t happy (February 18)

8. Far From Home: Meet the Migrants Returning to Shanghai (February 16) "On Sunday, Sixth Tone visited an underground parking lot at the Shanghai Railway Station, where a temporary shelter has been set up for returning workers. Since public transportation closes at midnight, many migrant workers find it too expensive to stay at hotels or book taxis. Instead, they stay overnight to catch the earliest metro to their next job."

And 2 more articles, also from Sixth Tone:

How the Pandemic Left China’s Migrant Kids Behind (February 16) "Less encouraging is the data from the last three years. Although reliable statistics are hard to come by, education figures suggest that the pandemic has reversed some of the progress of the past decade and separated large numbers of children from their migrant parents."

Chinese Teams in Turkey: Rescue Over but Relief Will Take Years (February 17) "As the world pledged to help, China was among the first, offering aid, equipment, and personnel. While the government announced 40 million yuan ($5.8 million) in aid, official estimates suggest that nearly 300 personnel, both sent by the government and from independent organizations such as Blue Sky Rescue and Ramunion, have joined the rescue effort."

9. Christian Leaders Are Sharing Their Experiences at the Asbury Revival (February 15) 

10. There is no sleeping giant (February 17) "That all-or-nothing view of revival will only ever produce the latter result. It will never bring 'revival.' I’m not sure it will even allow it."

11. After the ‘miracles’: Turkey, Syria, and long-term recovery (February 10) 

"There is no one to help me into the pool when the water is stirred": What people do with "revival"

Image text: "Act justly, love mercy, walk humbly. Micah 6:8" Image source.

My posts on the Asbury revival:

February 13 Blogaround
"There is no one to help me into the pool when the water is stirred": What people do with "revival"
Does God Use Miracles To Take Sides? 
The Logistics of a Revival 
Why I Don't Want to be at a "Revival"

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So, about what's going on at Asbury University.

Why students at a Kentucky Christian school are praying and singing round the clock (February 14)

Last Wednesday (Feb. 8), students at Asbury University gathered for their biweekly chapel service in the 1,500-seat Hughes Auditorium.

They sang. They listened to a sermon. They prayed.

Nearly a week later, many of them are still there.

“This has been an extraordinary time for us,” Asbury President Kevin Brown said during a gathering on Monday, more than 120 hours into what participants have referred to as a spiritual revival.

The revival has disrupted life and brought national attention to Asbury, an evangelical Christian school in Wilmore, Kentucky, about a half-hour outside of Lexington. Videos of students singing, weeping and praying have been posted on social media, leading to both criticism and praise from onlookers. News of the revival has also drawn students and other visitors to the campus to take part in the ongoing prayer and worship.

(I have some Facebook friends who have gone to see this revival and written about it on Facebook. A lot of people in evangelical circles are talking about it.)

See the Slacktivist's post about it: Revive us again (again), and also what I wrote in my latest blogaround.

So, first what I want to say is: I believe in God. I'm a Christian. Therefore I believe that it is at least theoretically possible that God does sometimes come and "pour out Their spirit" in a certain place, and people there do feel Their presence and have very strong emotional/spiritual experiences. Yes, it's at least theoretically possible, but I believe we should always be skeptical of any actual reports of this actually happening. Because it is much more likely to be caused by the way the music and the environment of the worship space manipulate people's emotions- and this can be used in nefarious ways by Christian leaders who know what they're doing.

So, I see articles from Christian sources about what's going on in Asbury, and I do feel like there's something real about it. Like God really has chosen to cause Their presence to be powerfully felt there. (Maybe I'm wrong though, who knows? I have ex-Christian Twitter friends who are side-eyeing the entire thing, and I get that.) My *feeling* is there really is at least a part of this that's from God- I don't think it's *all* because of someone's skill at playing emotionally-manipulative music or whatever- and I say that because what's happening at Asbury is very grassroots and student-led. 

But that doesn't mean that Christians who describe what's happening, or say "this is what it means," are right about that.

There's what God does, and then there's how people respond to it.

It makes me think about the healing of the man at the pool, in John 5:1-15. "Now there is in Jerusalem near the Sheep Gate a pool, which in Aramaic is called Bethesda and which is surrounded by five covered colonnades. Here a great number of disabled people used to lie—the blind, the lame, the paralyzed. [footnote, only found in some manuscripts: and they waited for the moving of the waters. From time to time an angel of the Lord would come down and stir up the waters. The first one into the pool after each such disturbance would be cured of whatever disease they had.]" Apparently this was the way God worked at this miraculous pool.

But it's not just about how God works, it's about how people respond. Jesus sees a man who had been sick for 38 years, and the sick man says, "Sir, I have no one to help me into the pool when the water is stirred. While I am trying to get in, someone else goes down ahead of me." Like... should someone have taken charge and set up a system where new people couldn't cut in front of people who had been waiting there for years, who were too disabled to get into the water? Or... maybe not... something seems kind of wrong about people putting rules and restrictions on a miracle, setting up neat systems to make it work according to their own opinions about who God "should" heal first... but at the same time, it wasn't fair to this guy, right?

I've heard that at Asbury, some Christian celebrities have shown up, and the students there do NOT let them have the stage. The worship music on stage is student-led. Whoever is in charge there doesn't want anyone to co-opt it for their own purposes. Maybe someone should have done something like that at the pool in Bethesda.

But if you're making decisions on who can or can't have the stage, then that aspect of it is from humans, not God. But there is no alternative- if no one puts a restriction there, then inevitably some power-hungry person will use it for their own ambitions/ political goals/ etc.

There's what God does, and then there's how people respond to it.

I believe in a God who lets people have the freedom to respond- and to be wrong sometimes. God does something, and then some believer says "God did this in my life, and this is what it means" and maybe their explanation on "this is what it means" is so completely different from God's actual opinion. But what is God going to do- only allow people who are right about everything to have spiritual experiences? Mind-control people to make sure they have the correct opinion about their spiritual experience?

I believe in a God who is a full person with Their own opinions and Their own experiences, and people are created in the image of God- God wants people to all be free to have their own opinions and their own experiences. It's not about making sure everyone knows the "right answer" about every issue- that's not important to my God at all. God does things and lets people make of it whatever they want. (Death of the author, I guess.)

And maybe I have an opinion and I believe that God shouldn't do those "spiritual experience" sorts of things, because of how people take it... like taking it as confirmation that all their already-held beliefs about God are true. I think about when God rescued Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego from the fiery furnace (Daniel 3), and I wonder if there was some other friend of theirs who was also very devoted to God, and made a nuanced argument about why it's okay to pretend to bow down to the statue, and so he wasn't thrown into the fiery furnace, and didn't experience the miracle, and then... then what? What does that do to his faith? (Maybe someday I'll find the time to write a bible fanfic on this.)

For me, actually, it used to be that a big part of this was wanting "evidence" that God exists. When I was evangelical, that's what I wanted. I was always very aware of atheism, and always fighting it... wanting a "spiritual experience" because then that would be "evidence"- wanting to investigate other people's accounts of their own spiritual experiences, to prove atheism wrong. 

Now I don't care about that anymore, though- now I would say I have more in common with atheists who criticize Christianity, than with conservative Christians. I don't think being wrong about the existence or non-existence of God really matters as much. So I hear about this revival, and my concern isn't about if it's "real" or not. It doesn't matter to me if it's real or not. It matters what people do with it. Are people going to say "and this means that God is confirming I was right about how being queer is a sin/ God is confirming I was right about how being queer is not a sin" etc etc etc?

(Maybe we should say that these spiritual experiences shouldn't be used to prop up one side or the other in a culture war- but isn't that what happened in Acts 10:44-48? There was the question of whether Gentiles could be Christians, or if only Jewish people could- and the Holy Spirit came on the Gentiles and they spoke in tongues, and that was evidence for which side of the argument God was on. Couldn't a similar thing happen, where God's spirit is clearly present in queer Christians, and that's evidence that the church should be queer-affirming? To some extent I think that has happened but in a more long-term sense- there are Christians who changed their minds because they got to know queer Christians and saw that the queer Christians really are devoted to God, etc.)

And I know a lot of Christians want to have these kinds of spiritual experiences, to have that feeling, to feel God's presence. Chasing that emotion, specifically. I'm not into that anymore either. I have boundaries with God; I've decided I won't have a "personal relationship" with any god. I won't be vulnerable to any god in that way. I've had spiritual experiences like this before, but I don't feel I need that now.

Like, honestly, I'm not on board with the idea that we "need" this kind of "revival." I'm not on board with Christians who long for it (because that's often tied up with ideas about Christians getting more political power...). It's just an emotional experience. Like, okay sure it's the presence of God or whatever, but, God is always with us. Where can I go from Your spirit, where can I flee from Your presence? We don't need God giving us our own personal little emotional experiences- we need to bring justice to the earth. Act justly, love mercy, walk humbly with God.

(Also I'm giving a lot of side-eye to Christians who uncritically accept that this really is a "revival", and don't have any concerns about it, and are like "let's pray for it to happen at our church too!")

Actually, I want to say a bit about where these emotional spiritual experiences figure into evangelical culture. I've been to Christian conferences where the worship service goes on a while and people are like "God is here!" and ... I would say the result of this is the way it inspires the people who experience it. The emotions of it can be so strong, that it's something that stays with you for years, and you base your life on it. There was one conference I was at, in college, that as I was kneeling in the front, with the worship music playing, I had this idea to start 2 bible study groups. And then I ended up actually doing it, over the next few months. I was inspired, I had that emotional experience, and I went on to do it. (At the same time, I wonder about people who made these big commitments about all the things they were going to do for God, during high-emotion spiritual experiences, and then don't end up doing them- I really wonder about the statistics on that.) And... I mean, yeah, hopefully people are inspired to do things that are good, but this is limited by the ideology you already believe in. Like, in those 2 bible study groups I started, I did that because I believed my friends needed God, and needed to become Christians. I don't believe that any more.

There's what God does, and then there's how people respond.

And I've been to Urbana (Intervarsity's huge missions conference). And it is a known phenomenon, that people "get the call to missions" at Urbana- like, you're having these emotional spiritual experiences, and in the midst of that, you feel like God is "calling" you to go be a missionary in some country. Actually, when I wanted to go to China, I didn't have that experience- and I worried SO MUCH that I wasn't "allowed" to go to China because God didn't "call" me. Like it was something I can't just choose to do myself, I can't just say "here are my reasons"- it's only valid if it just pops into my head as a random thought during a very spiritual experience. It really gave me a lot of angst back then, choosing to move to China because I wanted to, not because "God" "called" me.

Anywayyyy, maybe this post is all over the place, but I just want to write these things down... My point is, I think it's real, at least to some extent, but the important thing isn't if it's real, it's what people do with it. 

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Follow-up post: Does God Use Miracles To Take Sides?

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Related:

My Urbana 12 Commitment Card

"You Weren't There, the Night Jesus Found Me" 

When God Agreed That a Crush Was Dangerous

The things I've never let myself say about worship

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Some tweets (after the jump):

Monday, February 13, 2023

Blogaround

1. The Difference Between Mental Illness and Demonic Possession (February 1) "Yes—in the early 1990s, I think I participated in group exorcisms where the subjects were mentally ill, and not demon-possessed at all. And I wonder if I did more harm than good." An article about how to tell the difference. Personally, I believe demons probably do exist, but I don't think I believe any anecdotes I've heard from actual people about their actual experiences encountering an actual demon. Just seems so incredibly unlikely that a person would actually encounter one and also be able to figure out that's what it was.

2. Perspective: What pictures of abortions can and can’t do (February 6) This is a good article about the topic of what a fetus looks like- from the pregnancy apps happily declaring "your baby is the size of a blueberry!", to the abortion activists showing photos of fetuses after they have been damaged by the abortion process, to the women who had miscarriages and want to find the body and lovingly bury it. 

Personally, I don't like how images are used by both the "pro-life" and pro-choice sides, to either say "this is totally a baby!" or "this is just a meaningless clump of cells" because both of those are inaccurate and are trying to manipulate the images to support their argument, rather than trying to actually get at the truth of what a fetus looks like.

And I'm also uncomfortable with the idea that the physical appearance of the fetus should have any place in arguments on the legality of abortion. I think pregnant people should have accurate information- no hiding the fact that it does have tiny baby features, but also being realistic about when these things develop during pregnancy (the first trimester is completely different from the third trimester)- and then make their own decisions.

3. The Ant and the Universe (February 4) "The rubber band starts out one meter long, and stretches out one meter per second. This is one of those magical math rubber bands that can stretch indefinitely."

4. Stop praising Pastor Andy Stanley for pretending to love gay people (January 25) WELL-SAID.

I posted the link Andy Stanley's comments a few weeks ago (about how gay Christians who attend church are very committed to the church, and the church is lucky to have them, and straight Christians should learn from them). He's right, and it's something that conservative Christians need to hear- but don't take it to mean Stanley is queer-affirming or anything like that. It's quite possible he's just on the nicer end of "hate the sin, love the sinner."

Queer Christians know all about Christians who say very nice things about queer people but when it comes right down to it, you eventually figure out they don't support queer rights at all.

5. Enhanced clobber-texting methods (February 7) "A clobber text permitting torture would have been trumpeted by the advocates of 'enhanced interrogation techniques' as the definitive biblical word settling the matter beyond dispute, but a clobber text prohibiting the practice would have been relegated to endless exegetical dissection."

The Slacktivist has it exactly right. It's not just the clobber text itself- a bible verse that clearly says "don't do X", where X is whatever culture war issue is being debated. It's the whole culture around how to read the bible, how some verses are treated as more important than others because, uh, because, well, because... because... well, it's just obvious, and anyone who brings up a bible verse that says differently is "twisting Scripture."

6. Grace Community Church Rejected Elder’s Calls to ‘Do Justice’ in Abuse Case (February 9) [content note: domestic violence, coverup, spiritual abuse] "'They sided with a child abuser, who turned out to be a child molester, over a mother desperately trying to protect her three innocent young children. And that was and is flatly wrong, and needs to be made right,' Cho said to CT. 'Numerous elders have admitted in various private conversations that ‘mistakes were made’ and that they would make a different decision today knowing what they know now. But those admissions mean you need to make it right with the person you wronged; that is utterly basic Christianity.'"

7. Revival comes, again, to Asbury University (February 11) and Asbury Professor: We’re Witnessing a ‘Surprising Work of God’ (February 13) So... the story here is that Asbury University (a Christian university in Kentucky) had a chapel service last Wednesday, and people continued to stay there and sing worship songs and make public confessions and so on, for days... this chapel service is continuing for days (I am not sure if it's still going now or not- didn't find an article that said it ended...)

And yeah people are saying it's "revival" and "God is working" and all that.

So, uh, my thoughts on this:

My first question was, what sort of Christian denomination are we talking about here? What's the background? Is it in any way associated with Pentecostal/charismatic churches? Because, Pentecostal/charismatic churches are really into this kind of thing, they expect it to happen, they know how to set up their church service in such a way that influences people's emotions to make people think "God is working" and all that. So if this is somehow related to Christians who have a Pentecostal/charismatic background, I am not very impressed. But if these are Christians who come from the sort of church background where the worship services are fairly tame and they haven't experienced anything like this at all, well, now that's something. Then it's significant.

Apparently they are non-denominational or maybe associated with Methodists. So, yeah, not Pentecostal/charismatic. Okay, well then, that's unexpected- that makes me more curious about what's going on here.

Basically, I believe that it is totally possible that God does things that affect our physical reality. But, I am extremely skeptical of any actual account of any actual such events. (Oh lol this is kind of the same as what I said about link #1.) 

But hey, maybe this really is God, just deciding for some reason to be affectionate with people in this one particular place and time. 

But, uh, also a lot of it is people spreading the news "there's a revival happening" and then other Christians drive in from other places to see it and participate- so, it perpetuates itself.

I am also very skeptical about the way that people are interpreting this. Like, calling it a "revival." To me it seems more like, a bunch of people having a positive emotional/ spiritual experience- okay, but it doesn't really go any farther than that...? 

I mean, the only really long-term effect I can think of is like... maybe if you're there and you experience it, that feels like strong evidence that God exists and God can be experienced, and that would be something you remember in the future if you're considering the question of God existing/ what religion you are or are not going to identify with. (Oh lol, I just realized the Christianese term I'm looking for here is "it strengthens their faith" wow I'm really out of practice.) Uh, I hesitate about how to word this because I know I have readers who are atheists- basically, I think it's valid to dismiss other people's personal spiritual experiences as evidence for God and/or for a specific religion (because so many people have all kinds of different contradictory spiritual experiences)- but if it's your own spiritual experience, that's different.

When Christians see things like this and say "God is working," I think one of the main things they mean by "working" is "God is going to convince people to convert to Christianity." Which... I mean, that's just an interpretation. Just because a lot of Christians are having an emotional experience singing worship songs... like what does that have anything to do with non-Christians converting to Christianity? It's totally not connected- but in a certain type of Christian ideology, God being present and powerful means that God is going to convince non-Christians to believe in Jesus. In that ideology, it's connected.

One of my concerns is that when people have a spiritual experience like this, it confirms whatever religious ideology they already believe in. Who knows, maybe God is like "I choose, for my own ~mysterious reasons~ to create a spiritual experience for these people, even though they have a lot of very incorrect beliefs about me" (and really, doesn't everyone have a bunch of incorrect beliefs about God? They are beyond our understanding, that's kind of Their thing...) and then people take it to mean "oh, it really is true! All the beliefs I have about God really are true!" That's kind of a jump in logic (jump from "the spiritual world exists" to "God wants people to become Christians"- yeah, it doesn't follow).

And then I saw this tweet, which makes a good point:

YES! I think it's a little weird putting so much emphasis on emotional experiences... (Hence my side-eye towards the Pentecostal movement...) Like, I believe God is with us ALL THE TIME. And we already know what They want us to do: Do justice, love mercy, walk humbly before God. You don't need a "spiritual experience." Go do it.

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