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Employee sexual activity policies at Dave Ramsey's company revealed in new documents (September 2)
Well. Let's talk about this.
Dave Ramsey's company fired employees based on certain sexual activity, and Ramsey himself once referred to a woman by a derogatory term after she raised allegations that an employee was having an extramarital affair, new court documents reveal.
The revelations come as part of a lawsuit against Ramsey Solutions for terminating a female employee, Caitlin O'Connor, who was pregnant and not married at the time of her dismissal in June 2020.
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"If an employee is doing something that is contrary to standard Christian beliefs, normative Christian beliefs, then the people that we deal with in the Christian community would feel that we are hypocrites, and it would damage our brand," Ramsey said last year in a deposition.
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Ramsey Solutions says it terminated O'Connor for violating the company's "righteous living policy," while O'Connor argues the company discriminated against her for being a pregnant woman.
Like, whoaaaaaaaaaa, whoa, hold up right there. They fired a pregnant woman? They fired a pregnant woman? They fired a pregnant woman, specifically because she was pregnant?
Okay, I'm a mom, I have a kid, I did a whole damn pregnancy, and I'm mad, and let me tell you something: When you're pregnant, that's basically the WORST time to get fired. When I was pregnant, I felt sick and exhausted all the time. I needed extra help, extra support, extra flexibility and understanding from my manager. During the first trimester, I didn't want to tell my manager yet, but I had to, because I just felt so sick all the time and I couldn't work 8 hours a day like I was supposed to. Good thing I wasn't unmarried and working for Dave Ramsey, right?
Pregnant people are creating life and it's exhausting, and therefore they need other people to do a little extra to help them. In general, you should show extra care and understanding toward pregnant people.
But here's Ramsey Solutions, looking at an unmarried pregnant woman and seeing only her "sin", not seeing her as a vulnerable person whom Christians are morally obligated to help.
Like, whoaaa man, talk about straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel.
Like, okay let's talk about sin. Which sin is greater: premarital sex (and, cards on the table, I don't think premarital sex is a sin, I had premarital sex and it was a good decision for me) or cutting off a pregnant woman's source of income and health insurance, oh my god.
(In the Christmas story, Dave Ramsey is the innkeeper refusing to let Mary and Joseph stay there because they're not married.)Imagine trying to find a new job when you're pregnant. Going to job interviews, trying to present the best version of yourself when you just feel sick all the time. Trying to convince someone it's a good idea to hire you even though you're about to go on maternity leave.
And it's common for people's health insurance to be tied to their job. You know when you really really REALLY need health insurance? When you're pregnant. Do you know how EXPENSIVE it is to give birth?
Some pro-life people, to their credit, say "we should help women who have unplanned pregnancies so that they're financially able to have the baby." Well I GUESS DAVE RAMSEY ISN'T ONE OF THEM.
You guys... Dave Ramsey is gonna have to stand before God someday and explain to Them why he fired a woman for being pregnant. Yikes.
(Although, if I ask "isn't Dave Ramsey worried about going to hell?" you could make the argument that that ship has already sailed, when he said Christian landlords can totally raise their rents and evict people because it's really the market that's raising the rent, not your fault.)
Here, everyone, let's turn in our bibles to Genesis 38 and read the story of Onan. A story that everyone thinks is about making rules about sex, but is actually about cutting vulnerable people off from their source of income.
Here's what happened: A man named Er married a woman named Tamar, but then Er died without having children. In their society, when a man dies without any children, the man's brother is supposed to marry the widow, and the first child will "count" as the dead man's child. So Er's brother, Onan, married Tamar. But, the bible says, "Onan knew that the child would not be his; so whenever he slept with his brother’s wife, he spilled his semen on the ground to keep from providing offspring for his brother." And then God killed Onan for being so "wicked."
And modern evangelical Christians claim this story teaches us- drum roll please- wait for it- that masturbating is a sin!
Uh, what?
Oh wait, actually- drum roll- that non-procreative sex is a sin!
Okay, yeah, no, that's not what the story of Onan is about at all. In their society, a widow without a son to provide for her was basically screwed. Tamar was financially dependent on Onan and on the potential of having a child with him. And he refused to give her that. That was Onan's sin: refusing to provide for a vulnerable woman who was financially dependent on him.
Let's go back to this news article about Dave Ramsey, because it gets worse:
"There are exceptions to Righteous Living if you are a man," O'Connor's lawyers said in a filing that accompanied transcripts from depositions with Ramsey and other company executives. "In contrast, women who engaged in premarital sex have not been given second chances."
In making their argument, O'Connor's attorneys focus on a separate situation involving Chris Hogan, a former Ramsey Solutions media personality, who eventually left the company in March 2021 after having extramarital affairs and lying to company leadership about the extent of those affairs, all facts Dave Ramsey and other company leaders acknowledge in the newly released deposition transcripts.
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When Chris Hogan admitted details about one of his affairs to company leadership, he said oral sex occurred, but not sexual intercourse, according to depositions with Ramsey and other company executives. Ramsey and other company executives said in their depositions they don't fire employees for engaging in oral sex outside of marriage, but only sexual intercourse.
Oh, so if you have an affair, but it's "only" oral sex, that's fine, but if you are unmarried and you have "intercourse" than you get fired for that.
This illustrates how nonsensical it is for a company to have policies about employees' sex lives. Because, where do you draw the line? If you say "premarital sex is a sin" and then somebody comes up with some examples of things that are more immoral but they're not technically "intercourse", then what? Do you creepily come up with detailed explanations for exactly where the line is and exactly to what extent you're going to police your employees' sex lives? Eww.
And in Sheila Gregoire's twitter thread about this article, she said:
And one more thing from the article: They didn't fire Chris Hogan initially, because the cheating was "only" oral sex. So Dave Ramsey thinks women having consensual sex with a man they will marry is worse than a man having oral sex with a woman who's not his wife.@melissajhogan
— Sheila Gregoire--The Great Sex Rescue is here! (@sheilagregoire) September 2, 2022
Honestly, when I read this, I was astonished- because Gregoire believes that premarital sex is a sin, and I have never, EVER seen anyone in the "premarital sex is a sin" camp implying that premarital sex is not as bad as other sins. Like, look at how Gregoire describes it: "consensual sex with a man they will marry"- because it's consensual and because it's with the man she will marry, these are factors that make it less bad than other sexual sins.
WOWWWWW. I mean, I'm glad to see Gregoire saying this, because, yeah, I really don't think I've ever seen anyone who believes "premarital sex is a sin" saying that there's nuance to it, and some instances of sex outside of marriage are less bad than others. So thank you, Gregoire, for saying that.
The depositions also reveal that, including O'Connor, the company has fired three female employees who were pregnant. Ramsey Solutions maintains all three were fired for having premarital sex. One of those women, not O'Connor, notified the company of her pregnancy the week after she got married, according to a transcript of a deposition with Armando Lopez, senior executive director for human resources at Ramsey Solutions.
Because nothing says "rejoice with those who rejoice" like firing someone who just got married and is announcing her pregnancy...
Also, the company fired a male employee whose wife was pregnant after company officials calculated the date of conception was before the couple got married, according to transcripts with depositions with multiple company officials and copies of their emails.
Ah, yes, because that's exactly what Jesus would do, I seem to recall him saying something about that... about doing math correctly to make sure you don't sin... oh here it is... "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness."
Another female employee was fired after her boyfriend was reportedly seen walking around her apartment building one morning in boxers.
Can't these people mind their own business?
If an employee is living with a boyfriend or girlfriend, company officials assume the couple is having premarital sex, thus necessitating that employee's termination, Ramsey and another company executive said in depositions.
Okay, 2 things here. One: Thank you to the writer of this article, for pointing out the assumption that's being made here. Two: Okay now I am mad for asexual reasons.
Before we were married, Hendrix and I lived together. And the first 9-ish months we lived together, we did not have sex. (Or, rather, we did some sexual things but not "intercourse" so I guess Dave Ramsey would say it doesn't count.) It makes me so mad when Christians say that it's sinful to live with your partner because obviously everyone who is living with their partner is having sex. I remember one time some nice Christian lady told me I was sinning by living with my boyfriend "and sleeping with him" and I didn't even try to tell her we'd never had sex, because I was totally sure she wouldn't believe me.
Because when I younger and just trying to figure out how dating and sex are supposed to work, I asked other Christians this question- "Why is it a sin to live together?" and the answer I always got was "because couples who are living together are having sex." And I said "well, what if they are living together and not having sex?" and the answer I always got was "don't be so naive."
Honestly it makes no sense to me, this idea that it's impossible to live with your partner without having sex with them. (Probably this is related to the fact that I am asexual...) Like, clearly, you just decide "here is where we are drawing the line, here are the physical/sexual things we are willing to do, and here are the physical/sexual things we are NOT going to do" and then just act accordingly. Right? What is apparently so impossible about that?
And one last thing, to round out this article about how Ramsey Solutions creepily judges its employees:
The company also disciplines employees for viewing pornography, but doesn't fire them, Ramsey and another company executive acknowledged in depositions. The executives acknowledged those instances have almost always involved male employees, not female.
Like I said, why can't these people mind their own business. Like, what kind of weird privacy violations do they require you to set up when you start working there, such that the company has data on whether or not the employees watch porn? Boundaries!
So in summary, a lot of weird creepy policing of employees' sex lives, over at Ramsey Solutions. The biggest issue, though, is firing unmarried pregnant women. Don't you know you should give pregnant women extra help and support? Isn't that, like, obvious to anyone with any awareness of morality? When Christ divides the sheep from the goats, and asks Dave Ramsey to explain himself, that's going to be awkward as hell.
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Related:
What Pregnancy Taught Me About Being Pro-Choice
I’m Really Really REALLY Glad I Had Sex Before Marriage
Let me tell you about my "God-shaped hole"
My Experience With Maternity Leave In China
The Parable of the Living Wage
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